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Post by Nemesis on Jun 28, 2007 22:56:26 GMT -5
Yes, its me again. ~locks you all in~ This is a topic open for discussion. I am sure some people will see it one way, and others will see it a different way…that’s the point of opening topics ~snickers~. and, well, I love rattling cages... We all have our own views. These just happen to be mine Many people feel that the length of time you’ve been playing your character in RB can also relate to your characters ‘strength’. In most folklore, the longer a vampire trudges through immortality and are active, the stronger they become; more wisdom, more knowledge, more tactical experience, etc. So yes, in the view of some of us, the length of time playing your character CAN have a bearing on how you write his or her strengths and even ‘attitude’. For an example of the ‘attitude’ aspect, we can look at the ‘respect’ matter. Its not something everyone agrees with, as many do not look at the different ‘layers’ of respect, only seeing ‘respect’ as one dimensional concept. In-game, we all hear of ‘Elder’ vampires picking on ‘babies’ or ‘fledglings’, ‘disrespecting them’, and rumblings of the lack of ‘respect’ said ‘fledglings’ show to their ‘Elders’. (most of this really stems from the chatrooms)There is a conflict there, of what the term ‘respect’ can entail. For me, and many other ‘Ancient and Elder’ character players (playing the same character since 2002-2003), a level of respect maybe should be shown just for the longevity and endurance of a character in staying actively within RB. Many of the ‘Elder’ vampires paid their dues, worked their asses off to rise into their clan and RP Hierarchies, and made a name for themselves with hard work and perseverance. They watched new things come to the city, such as the transformation of simple biter links to the actual city grid, weapons, items and powers. They witnessed or were a part of pivotal events in the Cities RP history. They were, or were witness to, many of the ‘firsts’ to happen in RB History. However, those who have been playing from the start, or close to it, have no right to demand respect along the lines of saying ‘you will do as I tell you because I am older’ when dealing with fledglings. That is arrogance and ego. But, in life, we respect those in authority. We respect the elderly. We respect people who do heroic or great deeds in the media. We give this respect to total strangers just for who they are, what their title is, or their actions. Why do we not do the same with our characters? And why shouldn’t everyone be treated with a level of respect, from elder player to new. It’s a courtesy, not a demand. Just think of the different layers, levels or the concept the word ‘respect’ brings to mind. Those who were the trailblazers should be given due respect and should be proven to have greater 'strengths' in the vampire world. Those who have shown the staying power have earned some serious kudos. Especially lately when we see so many flake out for one reason or another, only to return because this place, RB, is so damn addictive >_< . Now, there IS a loophole to this theory of ‘in-game’ age in relation to respect and strength, and that is activity. I would find my character stronger than a character the same ‘in-game age’ in comparison to someone who never had their character involved in clans, or active RP. Why? Because weapon and coin numbers do not reflect a characters overall strength. Anyone can sit on their ass and amass riches. An example: ‘Vampire A’ entered RB in April 2003, roaming around for only a few weeks or say even 2 months, before finally finding a clan to join. From there ‘Vampire A’ builds powers, rises in the clans ranks, builds ties with their peers, takes part in numerous wars and zeroings, handles clan leadership roles, etc. and was a continuous presence with very little ‘down time’ (time not actively playing). ‘Vampire B’ entered RB in January 2003, roaming around, gaining coin, blood and weapons but never interacting in a confrontational level, such as clans (or if in clan, only on an intel or thievery level, not an active warring participant that taxes personal blood, coin and weapons), never leading more than a family gathering setting, and remaining neutral or silent for the most part (or not entering into public arena’s until they KNOW they have weapon, blood and coin reserves..lol) and taking extended ‘breaks’ from all game play over the course of their characters gaming years. ‘Vampire B’ may have more actual in-game time by a few months, more blood, more weapons and more coins, but they lack any experience in war on a large scale, leadership, and they have never been zeroed. Their coin, blood and weapons have been gathered and horded. ‘Vampire A’ was very active through the course of their history; leading, warring, and losing all coin, blood and weapons in various wars. To me, despite ‘Vampire B’ being older in-game by a few months, ‘Vampire A’ is the stronger vampire, and due a bit of ‘longevity and accomplishment respect’ as opposed to ‘Vampire B’. 'Vampire A' would be of greater strength than 'Vampire B'. Another thing to be thought over is the In Character and Out Of Character separation BETWEEN characters. Sounds confusing, yes? To clarify: Say you started a character 3 years ago. You really had no interest in moving in the city grid or getting powers, being more interested in just participating in RP. Your vampire gets deleted for inactivity due to it not being donated for. So you are forced to create a new character, or several new characters if it’s a repeated issue, so you can continue Rping. Now…YOU, as a player, may know 3 years worth of RB, but a new character is a NEW character. That character has not been in RB for 3 years, and you really shouldn’t relate experiences you had with a previous character to the new one. That’s a serious faux pas. It’s a major IC/OOC cross. Basically, if you’ve been forced to create several characters over time due to inactivity deletions, you are resetting a character clock. when I say 'strength', i do not mean omnipotent. We all know its far too easy to powerplay, and its something most of us strive to avoid, in both ourselves, and those we interact with. However, if pitting Vamp A and Vamp B together in RP rivalry, I feel Vamp A is the victor in 'strength'. They may not have the blood, the coin, the weapons, but they have proven knowledge and backbone. Now, as I’ve stated repeatedly, most of this is my take on things. I know others who have been around as long as me feel the same and then there are others who disagree completely. All this is leading up to an option to incorporate the idea into the RP level. I know the ranking systems out there work, based on powers and blood, though I feel they are still off balance by the example I related earlier by Vamp A and Vamp B. I’m leaving this as is for now however, as I’d like to see different views, ideas, and discussion on it. I know someone will mention the fact that it’s easy to lie about in-game age or how long they’ve actually been playing their character, and yes, verification is tricky…but not impossible. ~looks shifty~ Veee haff our vaaaayyss af finding out.. I’m not saying we are implementing anything, so please..no one get their panties in a bunch..unless you like that sorta thing. ~stares~ This is just a discussion based off an idea. Humor me EDIT: am adding this, because there was something brought up about 'respect' and crossing ic and ooc.
Please dont look deeper than what is presented. I think I need to clarify where I am coming from, cuz it has nothing to do with OOC between players. Its purely character interaction.
This aspect of respect was meant to remain purely between characters, on the in character level. Characters who are part of the RB evolution and history through the years. Has nothing to do with ic/ooc crossing, or respecting another player just because they stuck with the game so long. Also, the main idea was in-game age in relation to strength. The respect aspect is secondary, used mainly in an attempt to convey the point. I know I know...I muddle topics and get side tracked....~kicks Michelle~
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Post by ophelia Lokason on Jun 29, 2007 11:39:16 GMT -5
I don't think that respect is a matter of OOC IC crossing. From an in character stand point it boils down to something most every vampire before they were turned were taught. Respect your Elders. And I think the point of this article was not about respect persay but in game age. If you've been in the city for years, but you've had twelve different characters, I do not think that you (you being generalized) can be considered Ancient or Elder. The experience of the singular vampire has not been built up or worked on..its just been replicated and passed on from character to character. That's just plain ridiculous. To touch on the respect standpoint, those vampires that have been in the city for years and don't act like complete morons or dictators, that have seen the city landscape change and in many cases have had a hand in that change do deserve a natural degree of respect. Please note that I made mention of those that DONT act like they're above everyone, so to speak.
What IS IC-OOC crossing is when one has a vampire, and creates another and then another, but each character has carry over knowledge from the past character IS crossing those lines. *chews on Beth's pencil and stares* OW!
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Post by Wings on Jun 29, 2007 12:53:48 GMT -5
I can fully support the 'strength' aspect, this is something that makes complete sense to me, and I believe it is played like that in most cases anyway. Strength in regards to experience and also relating to 'having connections'. But this is overall a rp aspect and can not be applied in the game itself as such, as any battle outcome in there will not depend on a character's incity age, but powers and weaponry and coins to necro? I am just at a slight loss as to how such 'added strength' could become part of the game itself. Would it mean that if you rp a battle, and even if you have the weapons and coins (let's say we are talking a 1 1/2 year ingame character, fully powered, against a 3 year old ingame character, fully powered, but due to whatever reasons the 1 1/2 year old character is in possessions of far more scrolls, HW and GS and also coins) - in the city the 'younger' character will have to hold back due to the fact the 'older' character has a longer standing? I am just really confused on this. Not meaning to tear anything down as such. I am just wondering how such 'strength' could be incorporated, beyond of what I personally feel it to be part of rp already. And yes, sorry about my other post, I just feel very strongly about respect issues and have listened to discussion on it before. I do not respect 'elders' perse, instead I come to respect individuals based on my personal judgement. I will be polite and friendly, but it has nothing to do with respect for me personally. It might just be a matter of interpreting the word differently? Would not be the first time misunderstandings arise through different interpretation... Anyway, if this is more about 'strength', then I shall support it whole heartedly, albeit - even strength is a rather complex matter
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Post by Nemesis on Jun 29, 2007 14:38:28 GMT -5
it IS complex The tricky thing to determine 'how much' strength a character would have based on in-city age without it being too off balance. Its not just a matter of ‘age’, but of what the character has done. Like my example in the first post…one vampire was an active warrior, having fought battles, even possibly being zeroed a time or two. Where the other did nothing but amass blood, coin and stockpile weapons. Because of this....yes...proof would be needed that vampires actually were in the places they claimed, and did the things they claimed to have done. Most are pretty honest about such things. There's pride in it. And they will usually have friends, acquaintances, clan-mates, ex and current, willing to substantiate claims. Let me also add, the no one likes to give out his or her weapon and coin details. Many clans prohibit it, and, it’s often times considered a ‘personal’ matter. It leaves mystery to what you are up against. And, we take pride in accomplishments; it’s in our nature…clan ties, past accomplishments, etc. So really..that is the biggest thing to determine strengths. As for just how to mark this strength…I’m honestly not sure…. I’m really just trying to pan it all out first. When a numerical rank was given to blood points in an IGS, I felt it unfair because of the example I laid out. Some vampires have never lost an ounce of blood, while others have been in wars and duels, losing all of theirs more than once. So blood points shouldnt be so big of a contributing factor when determining 'strength' at all. We could use a numerical point system, or just simple one word identifiers in our signatures or with our IGN. A lot of thought needs to go into just how much is appropriate to keep things from being too one sided, such as an blood point IGS system.
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Post by Wings on Jun 29, 2007 19:45:15 GMT -5
I fully agree that an IGS placing too much weight on blood is not reflecting the 'strength' of a character very well, although in a battle situation blood can come into play quite considerably.. but I, too, feel if there has to be an IGS (to help limit power-playing) it would be nice to add other factors to it as well. Maybe thinking up an 'experience' rating to add to an IGS (which otherwise consists of powers and blood), incorporating incity age, what clan a character has served in, whether the character has actively taken part in battles and so forth? Such experience would of course have to be documented if a player wishes this to be added to their IGS, with witness reports and all.. lol Just how to set up such a rating will not be an easy task
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Post by Chiru on Jun 30, 2007 20:37:18 GMT -5
You have to think about this as well... you don't want people doing something like this (names removed of course)
Sire - About 2 years old, clanned in a non-waring clan twice. She - blah weak not even 4 powers to her name to my knowledge
In a Thread with two vampires, one 2nd gen too, the other not sure. However both stronger then her power wise. Hmm... that's the stuff I don't want to see really I don't.
Powers - come to play Age - comes to play (in a way) Knowledge really is what comes to play actually and the best way to do that is based on powers and age... (best we have so far)
Sire has never really helped in a zeroing, the close 'fight' you could claim was one against Astaroth, and that was never a zeroing fight, weakened yes, but never a real fight. Didn't take part in this last war, didn't do nothing of that sort. The childe, of course didn't take part in a zeroing or a fight for that matter. So the Sire has perhaps 2 hits (where they threw a HW) and one fight.
BUT compared to say Ophelia, when she was bonded to Mav, she's stronger and older. Ophelia was a 3rd gen I think it was. Mav - Heimdag? Fully powered, 4+ years old, lots of wars and fights and zeroings (helped or given) and yet... this one vampire being a 2nd gen is stronger then her? I fear such things happening HERE. What was she to when her sire (not that it will happen) binds to say someone who's a 5th Gen and makes her a 6th? Does she get weaker IC as well because of it?
So yes I think after seeing this, that some form (even if not the best) of age would be good. Not meant towards Respect but towards knowledge. (Assuming they have it) which can help be based around, wars, and fighting. Someone who's apart of a non-waring clan twice, and been in only one real fight (which wasn't even worth it as they were so out numbered it wasn't funny) compared to someone who has been in more... comes into play which is why I would love to see something based around warrior and non-warrior vampires as well. Different forms of knowledge based around age...
WITHOUT mixing ooc knowledge.... may be hard to come up with something like that but I really don't want to see -points at the quote- that here.
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Post by ophelia Lokason on Jun 30, 2007 21:29:09 GMT -5
I think limiting powerplaying is really simple. Generally, though not all the time, powerplaying is done by a player that has limited experience in this particular rp format. Othertimes they're simply not paying attention to any kind of rule of conduct, such as it is. I've found it quite effective to simply pull someone aside and say 'hey, you can't make my character do things without my permission' and then offer some kind of alternative action as well as examples of what is acceptable and what is not.
I didn't like the 'IGS' when it came out because the emphasis IS on blood. And at the sake of sounding arrogant, there are ALOT of fat vampires out there, with far more blood than my character that I do not feel like they are more 'powerful' (again, for lack of a better word)
It took a bit over 3 years for my character to even GAIN 10k in blood and at her peak, she's only had 18k. I've been playing ophelia for five years. Well, it will be five in October I believe. From almost day 1 she's been in some form of war or another, led clans, led wars etc. Do I think this makes her more powerful than JoeBlow with 60k in blood? Yeah, I do.
To address the comment about ophelia binding to Mav. ophelia IS infinatly older than Mav, and only slightly younger than Heimdag himself is. But I do not bind my character for power or strength. I bind my character for the relationships she's formed. Does binding to a younger character make one weaker IC? Nah, I don't think so. When you look at what the previous family of ophelia could accomplish as a whole, as well as ophelia's general personality, nothing was diminished, but rather more was gained, and much was learned.
For me, in game strength comes from skill and knowledge and lessons learned, lessons taught. Not blood.
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Post by Nemesis on Jun 30, 2007 21:33:14 GMT -5
hhmm...I dont think we should look at generations and places in the bloodlines or sires at all in relation to determining ones personal knowledge and strength along with 'age'. With the revolving doors the HoB and HoS seem to have in place, it brings too much chaos to a simple idea. I think the added strength from 'age' should be based strictly on time in city and activity. One battle or duel here and there over the course of 4 years is NOT activity. Like I said with Vamp A and Vamp B...anyone can sit on their ass and amass riches, blood, etc....to build yourself as a warrior, you have to work for it. Now, being in a clan, even if not fully powered yet, and taking part in a real documented war...and then several more after that....THAT would constitute 'experience'. Bringing bloodlines and generaions into it just makes it more messy than need be. Keeping it personal, to just the vampire in question, is all thats needed to determine its strength.
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Post by Wings on Jun 30, 2007 22:15:09 GMT -5
lol *looks at the quote Kittie posted* I agree, generations mean nothing, also because - let's say- you are a 4th generation, then your grandsire severs and you are suddenly a 3rd generation - gained any experience from that? Don't think so either... But I still believe blood is of importance when it comes to battling. You can be a fully powered 'old' vampire, but if you have just come out of a war with just 200 BP left, coins spent on weaponry and necroing - and end in a confrontaion with a far 'younger' vampire, not even fully powered, but one who has gained blood, let's say even through means like quizzilla or what not - that one doesn't need much to send you into torpor... Well, how about two stats? One based on powers and blood, giving just a rough idea on where a character stands with such things, and then another - called Status or something like that. Something referring to the 'standing' of a character in regards to ingame age, experience, maybe even how 'known' a character is, to seperate the 'young guns' from the 'old'..? Just an idea. Probably not a good one, but I think pressing it all into 1 IGS will be tough and still not truly show who is a vampire of experience and 'age', whilst a stat just for that would give a clearer indication about such things.
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neske
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Post by neske on Jul 2, 2007 20:47:24 GMT -5
The problem with an strength system is that there is much in the game that is difficult if not impossible to quantify. I think that the IGS system that I have seen is actually more skewed towards blood simply because that is easy to quantify and verify.
I think it would be relatively easy to design a better system than that one, but one really needs to consider the reason behind building the system -- that is, what it's purpose would be.
If the purpose is to as accurately as possible represent (some how) the strength of a character in game, then I believe you have a near impossible task. There would be the issue of experience, time in game, clans, money, weapons, leadership, powers, blood, and so on.
If the purpose is to as accurately as possible predict the outcome of a duel, well then you have a slightly easier task, but weapons, coin, and experience still come into play -- and as it has been mentioned that some players may not give out that information, and it would hard to verify even if it was submitted.
If the purpose is to create a system which takes into account experience as well as powers and blood to state a relative strength of a vampire for the purpose of preventing power playing by newer players, then you have a fairly easy task.
As to the issue of blood and experience (esp. as it regards battle), at some point blood is going to win over experience in a dual type setting. [In a war, things would be completely different.] However, in regards to a vampire like ophelia, who has a bp of about 5,000 (but has a lot of experience in game and in combat) -- I think the question of at what point would she be overwhelmed by superior blood must be asked. In battle, your blood is a shield that protects you from zeroing. At what point would the shield be too big to overcome? 10,000; 20,000; 40,000; 80,000? I don't know the answer, but if you are going to design a system that rewards experience one would have to decide upon an answer so you could reward blood and experience appropriately.
One must remember, also, that at in some cases there is going to be IC/OOC crossing. For example neske has never been in battle. He is a vampire that has been in the city for over 2.5 years and is one of the leaders of a neutral clan. He has no experience fighting. One would assume that he has researched it and read about it, etc. Certainly as a character he has much less experience than many other vampires in the game. This does not mean that the player of neske isn't experienced in fighting. The player of neske has actually fought in game through alts. Now if neske were attacked in game, I as a player am going to use all of my knowledge of fighting. I am not going to not use some of my knowledge and experience of combat just because neske as a character has no experience in it. Technically this is an IC/OOC cross. But this is an in game example, would I do the same in role play? Absolutely not. I bring this up as another example in regards to the difficulty you might have in rewarding experience. Neske has much less experience in fighting in RP but if it ever overflowed into the game his player's experience would then be a factor.
But then again, is this really your issue? Some one like neske isn't going to power play. IC and in RP, he is going to respect some one like Ophelia no matter what numbers or other potential system that you use to evaluate strength. I think your real issue would be to stop less experienced, or perhaps arrogant players from power playing.
If you are looking for a system that does that, I would say the best system would be something that doesn't quantify, but evaluates. I would create a series of levels (off the top of my head): Fledgling, Night Walker, Experienced, Elder, Ancient, Royal. The staff can evaluate when they feel that some one has reached the next level and tell that player they can change their title. In this way you could make (for example) neske and ophelia both Ancients. Whether one could defeat the other in combat is not really the issue. That they are probably more than a match for anyone underneath "Ancient" is a guideline that other RP's should take into account when in threads with them, though.
I think the problems with numbers is that people think because one character is a 21 and the other is a 22, that the 22 can take the 21 in a fight. That's really not representative of the complexities of the game.
And as a final note (deep breath), in regards to Elders giving respect to fledglings, or newer players. Let me say point out that there is a difference between IC/OOC here. I as a player may respect your writing and RP, but that does not mean the character neske is going to show you respect in a thread. IC neske is old, knowledgeable, experienced, fully powered, weaponed, rich, and one of the leaders of the oldest neutral clan in the game whose only purpose since it was founded has been to collect information. He has access to the compiled knowledge of years of work compiled by hundreds of vampires. You (for example) don't even have celerity yet and you expect neske to respect you? Please. But if you role play well OOC I as a player am going to respect you, and if you work hard in game eventually you'll earn neske's respect, too.
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Post by Chiru on Jul 2, 2007 21:36:22 GMT -5
I love your examples... the one with the blood though 5k vs say 80k all based on coins and I refuse to ask people for the weapon information or coin information. That is something I can't second-sight as a vampire/player and hence I refuse to use it.
Your example about Neske not fighting but your alt having so... another good one. This is to me something gamewise also comes into play. Yet if your someone who always get's deleted... well won't go there...
Michelle, I was using your vampire for example because I know you were one of the people to help set the way RB is, though I meant it simply as a form of gen. The person who typed my quote sees the generations of one vampire being what makes one 'elder' or 'young' which is an idea based around some myths dealing with vampires *I am working on it I have added more* the higher the gen, the more powerful they are. That I can't agree with because as you said Michelle she was older then her sire, so why should she be 'weaker' then her sire simply because she was now apart of that bloodline? (when she was)
Now as I'm talking with Neske's mun *grins* we've brought up Cloaks and Neuts. I think and believe that either
a. we change that to be the color of those who are cloaked vampires by their name. (not to found of this idea but again an idea) and the neuts be the shade of pink they are in the game. b. Have it placed somewhere, in the Personal Text the signature. Either BC or N1, N2, and N3 (or if able to have BCN1/2/3) This showing what they have, if they can be 'attacked' game wise or not. BC can of course only attack each other, nor be attacked by those outside of a BC. Ns not attack or able to attack. Now... what does this mean? They can be bitten but who really wants to have a biting war?
Now BCs are resters - no ifs or buts, they can't be hit or attacked and they can't be even bitten they're 'torpored' until they get to whatever limit it is. Now... this *can* mean that they do not do the two weeks... Yet if we focus on this that should be good. Also if someone is able to use HW for blood (only need 200 to attack, easy killed yes, but still to throw an attack you need 200) unless we want to use scrolls as an attack which it can be (SoT) which then means 50... but to use that against someone with 5k >> that's sorta of laughable...
I want to find a way, to use *these* facts, and I would like a way to at least *show* what someone is game wise, and not make this a *force* form of respect...
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neske
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Post by neske on Jul 2, 2007 22:07:50 GMT -5
I think you will have the same problems with coin as you do with blood. Vampires that fight little build up coins, blood, and weapons while vampires that are fighting a lot tend to use them. The results of such a system would be skewed again towards vampires that may have less experience but full bank accounts.
This would also be hard to verify. You could by screen shot a bank, perhaps. But the issue of vampires in clans comes up as well. As has been pointed out, many clans would prohibit the release of such information.
The Battle Cloak and Neutrality designations in a signature make sense to me.
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Post by Wings on Jul 2, 2007 22:45:31 GMT -5
You (for example) don't even have celerity yet and you expect neske to respect you? Please. But if you role play well OOC I as a player am going to respect you, and if you work hard in game eventually you'll earn neske's respect, too. I shall take that 'you' was referring to me? *winks* If not so, I shall ask to be pardoned. My original post, which I removed, was mainly in regards to the 'respect' issue, as it was important for me to underline that respect is something that is granted on an individual level. Some may respect a great warrior, another character might will judge a warrior as 'weak', due to the personal belief that waring is a sign of weakness overall, the inability to find solutions beyond violence. My character will respect on a personal judgement, and no number or title would make any difference on that, neither would I wish for my character to find respect due to a number or a title. It was that which I outlined originally, to show the complexity of 'respect', probably also due to how one actually interprets the word itself. As for the IC/OOC crossing, I fully agree on that. I know the city in and out, my new character obviously does not, and whilst within rp I will play her as totally inexperienced - the moment I log into Ravenblack, I of course will not have her stumble about the way I did stumble about 3 years ago. Otherwise - I like the idea of names/titles, like ancients and so forth, just to give other rpers an idea what kind of 'standing' a vampire may has within the city. It could never amount to a rule of having to 'respect' because of that, but I know that is not planned anyway, so all is well ^^ *returns to sweating for Kittie who still wants changes to codes made, her head already bursting from that stupid HTML stuff* >.<
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Post by Chiru on Jul 3, 2007 0:47:34 GMT -5
**NOTE** We will not now nor ever, force someone In Charater to respect another characters. We will have however respect[/b] Out of Character. This means, that even if they piss you off, you hate their guts and their stupid assholes. You will at least be respectful when force to deal with them. That's really all I care about.
Yesh, you are right neske's mun, coins will never at least not with me on the staff team -grins- come into play. I don't think anyone has the right to respect weapon information or coin weapon other then houses or clans. Which deal with such manners, at least not in public and clearly not to me or any other staff member, as we have no right to that information. It's why I want to keep things (this is me, not everyone) based around IC information, such as Neske is not a warrior, he would then put something *Non-Warrior* *Neutral Based Vampire* something along those lines.... but again, we will have people running around with *Warrior* or something and that would bother me. For example, Chiru's taken part in the last war, she's also been in a few of fights and a duel, and has of course gotten a few hits for other reasons. Now, she's a Semi-Warrior if you ask me (as she has 3.5 actual fights, a war and a duel). Not an Older Warrior. So I think that should be a difference. I don't want to count "Oh but I threw one HW at so-and-so, and I been in one fight" alright then you have an idea... I wouldn't call you a warrior, let alone a fighter. Nor would Chiru for that matter. That just means, sometime during the line *your character* gave a warning... and was in a *fight* was it a duel? Maybe... Duelist if it's been a couple of Duels... However my problem with this is... how can you tell who someone has done what? Backing... right... (and if I count my alt, I have a few more fights then that under my belt ) Then you have to look at the type of fighter, Chiru doesn't hit anyone back for hitting her, now if her clan or family go and attack in her defence then she will join. Why? She won't have them go at alone but she is someone who pisses a few people off and well, doesn't believe her family or clan should be dragged into something that's an old grudge on some other vampires. Then you have splinters... (Chiru of course was 'raised' by them hence her whole not hitting back thing if it's her and yesh I and her take a lot of pride in that) There is so much to look at... and I have no idea how to look at it. However at the time we can for sure, have a list of maybe the powers. With InGame Powers (IGP: 12, FP, NP) FP - Fully Powered, NP - No Powers... Now... that would mean... blah a lot of 'letters' for someone who say has 2 powers and a battlecloak. Meaning (IGP: 2 BC) Is what that could look like while someone like me would have (FP) or even for someone else it would be (FP N3) So do we want something like that? Or do we want something different? This is what I think is the idea... Then what could be added if *wanted* For say Nemesis "Ancient FP" or Chiru "High Elder FP" hence bring in where someone stands... ranks can be easily enough 'assigned' but that could run into problems as well lol as then again the staff would be 'saying' and of course their is the "proving of age"
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neske
New Member
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Post by neske on Jul 3, 2007 6:30:10 GMT -5
You (for example) don't even have celerity yet and you expect neske to respect you? Please. But if you role play well OOC I as a player am going to respect you, and if you work hard in game eventually you'll earn neske's respect, too. I shall take that 'you' was referring to me? *winks* If not so, I shall ask to be pardoned. The "you" in question was general and not specific. So, no, it wasn't directed towards you specifically. It was directed at a general 'you' -- meaning any one who might not feel that older vampires give newer ones enough respect. If you fit into that group, then the comment was meant for you, if you are not then the comment wasn't meant for you.
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Post by Wings on Jul 3, 2007 7:22:08 GMT -5
Yes, I apologize profoundly, I was extremely tired when I typed that (I think it was 5 am in the morning for me >.< ) plus I was stressed and touchy for various other reasons.
Returning to the issue at hand, I believe a form of IGS should deal with the 'fighting capabilities' of a character, albeit it will (and should) always be just a rough measure, and even though the already existing IGS has a focus maybe a bit too much on blood - as a rough measure it is actually not too bad in my view. Personally I would prefer an additional sort of 'title' system added to an IGS, which would more indicate the 'social standing' of a character in regards to in-city age, influence, experience and so forth. What I took from neske's mun talking about his/her character, is that neske is an old and powerful character in my personal view, despite neske never having fought a war (and not taking the IC/OOC crossing issue into account here, about how the player may has come to taste war with alts). It is neske himself who has a 'high social standing', same as many old established characters have, and a title system would mean other rpers could look at a title and from that decide whether or not their own character may will have heard of that character beforehand or similar.
Hope this has all made sense (I think I should sleep more o.O) and has not just come over as incoherent ramblings.
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Post by Rykoth on Jul 3, 2007 7:34:44 GMT -5
Alright... I skipped a few posts since I don't unfortunately have as much time as I used to. In my opinion there are TWO MAIN FACTORS you have to weigh in..
A. In-City Time B. Vampire Age
These are two different things... yes you can pull the whole "if it didn't happen IG it didn't happen at all" and thus say every vampire was sired AFTER the city came to be. Which if you use that excuse then its impossible to rp anything other then walking, biting, thieving, or using vials of holy water, canisters of garlic spray, or scrolls.
I see it like this.
A vampire in my eyes can be 1000000000 years old, but be a neophyte in the city... why? He might have ruled France or Australia or a Hindu village... might have been their version of Capadocious but if he comes to RB City he has a whole new playground that he is NOT the king of. Therefore he is new to the city and thus... must suck it up and work from the bottom up.
Rykoth is near 700 years old, and I started rping him 2003... yet he isn't even well known to the point of being constantly zeroed or running. He could have gone that route... but vampire age doesn't mean guaranteed power.
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Post by Nemesis on Jul 3, 2007 10:42:38 GMT -5
~looks shifty~
heh....ok...so yesh...i forgot to mention the ingame age in comparison to how old you make your vampire ~snickers~ what! My brain goes off in 20 different directions all at once..lol
I sorta see it as...RB is some sort of Mecca for vampiric kind. Yes...they could have been roaming the world for ages...but RB city offers a source of power...(the ingame powers)...so vampires trek there and get all powered up. 'life begins in Ravenblack'...lol... thats just how I try to rationalize it..because while i dont play my character as really old (she's only about 250), she didnt start 'learning' (powering up) til she came to Ravenblack. ~nods~ man...did that make ANY sense?
oh..and i like neske's muns suggestion on the title relating to a social standing type of thing. That would allow the players to determine how and if their character see another as 'competition' and to make RP interactions between characters run smooth. There'd be no elders mistaking other elders for younger pires, and vice versa and it would help newer pires find sires that are older or younger, depending on their tastes. Some wish to be sired by long standing pires, some want hard core warriors, some would prefer a neutral pire, etc...
~takes a breath and stops rambling~
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Post by Ashenvale Z Shuukakshamaru on Jul 4, 2007 11:12:34 GMT -5
*walks in and waves smiling*
ill support neske mun suggestion half yes and half not the creation of categories over vampire age and/or strength will make rping run smooth and also encourage the new players to work on they way up although all of this started with ingame and vampire age my opinion usually goes to a more pacifist one everyone deserves the same amount of respect, now what i think were talking about heres is how to make the elders get the respect they deserve for their work.
"is more worth the devil for old that for being the devil"
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Post by Wings on Jul 4, 2007 20:45:26 GMT -5
... everyone deserves the same amount of respect, now what i think were talking about heres is how to make the elders get the respect they deserve for their work. I am not sure whether I read that part right, but well, I was definitely worried about that respect issue to start, but I think the progression of the thread has shown it isn't about that. The way I see a title system really is that it could greatly help in rp. One of the problems I saw on another forum related to RavenBlack (and not naming a name here >.> ), was that most players did not even know there was a history to the city (many of them actually believing the owner of the forum had even created the game itself o.O) If - for example - the character of Capadocious would have entered their thread (never happened, but I feel it a fitting example ), they would not have had any clue at all who they were dealing with. An IGS just based on blood and powers can also not give any indication of the history that character for example has attached to it within the city (btw, not evaluating that history, just stating there is a history connected to it) Okay, a just sired vampire would of course more than likely not know who Capadocious is, but they were playing characters on that forum they were beginning to portray as 'established'. Now, just by pure logic - how can you be a vampire in that city without having any idea about the powerful and history laden names? I don't think that makes any sense. It has nothing to do with 'respect' as such, but the simple logic that there are powerful/ancient vampires, and if a title system lets another roleplayer know how established or known another character is, I personally see that as a benefit, as it opens up new options in rp. No one would say you have to play your own character 'awed' by an older character, but it would give you the option to maybe incorporate that your character has heard that name before. It hopefully also would spark interest in newer players to want to learn more about the history, and open their eyes to the fact that this game has indeed characters within it that have been rped for a long time. To me, it would make the city more real. I always greatly disliked on the other forum I mentioned, that it felt very 'detached' from what else was going on in the city. Newcomers created characters that very quickly claimed to almost RULE Ravenblack, and it just made no sense to me. There weren't many established characters on that forum, yes, but if any of them had wished to rp with newcomers there, I can imagine it would have turned out extremely difficult for them, those newcomers believing they had it all figured, whilst in truth they knew aboslutely nothing about what was going on in the city. A title system, with a good explanation of its rankings, should hopefully help the understanding of new players that the city can not be conquered in one night of writing a few posts, and not even by gaining powers fast, but that there is a complex society attached to it, and that if one wishes to find a place within it, one has to work for it in various ways - not just by claiming one's own character is some uberpowerful creature from nowhere, and all will simply bow to that because the writer typed in the profile sheet that's what all others do
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Eliot Sloan
Creature of the Night
Eliot Sloan. I'm a vampire. Rawr. :]
Posts: 23
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Post by Eliot Sloan on Jul 6, 2007 13:31:34 GMT -5
I agree with the whole 'age' thing. People who have been here, to witness things happening, then by all means should be given a little bit more respect. To those of us just sired, or not sired yet(Which would be me. ^_^ ) it's pretty much law you have to respect people that are older, wiser. Even if you happen to have been older than the person whose charater sired you. Its like being born again (haha, duh. The Rebirth) and the sire as well as anyone else sired before you is now like adults and your the whiney three year old at IHOP. Although I do think if someone has made multiple characters over the years, and they are low in 'age' and 'strength', people should respect them, of course when they do anything, as everybody should be doing, but sort of aknowledge the fact that they know what they're doing.(Unlike me. ._. ) Er..Let me refine that.. Everybody should be respectful, but if you think someone whose been there longer, has been doing this longer, than you, doesn't know what their doing. You're probably wrong.
The 'strength' aspect also makes sense to me. Obviously as you get older(in actual life. No. Really. Think about this) as you grow up, you do become stronger. As a little kid, when you fell down and scrapped your knee, you cried for about ten minutes until someone gave you some icecream, or something. But say when your a teenager, the only thing that hurts is when some girl kicks you in the shin. Vampires can be seen exactly like that. As someone progresses and continues to rp, then by all means should be able to, here and there, say that they've become stonger.
Now talking about in-game strength, is just like.. Like talking about what belt you recieved in karate. Sure it may define some of your strength but not all of it. You may have a black belt, but it will not alieviate the pain of getting kick in the balls.
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Post by Chiru on Jul 7, 2007 6:54:15 GMT -5
Hmm... looking at what's been said. I think it's safe to assume that here we will most likely put something forward on who are 'older' game wise. As I stated we will not require anyone to "give respect" however, at the same time it will give a form of respect to those players as well... -closes eyes- My only problem with the whole think, is I would hate to have to say 'so and so' makes it as 'such and such'
We will however be starting soon, something based ONLY around the powers and rather or not someone is cloaked or a neut... and that will be up to the person to figure out how they wish to see those, also those who do not wish to 'deal' with those who are cloaked or neut, will know ahead of time before joining a thread.
The whole time thing... I think may need more time. To figure out and work out on.
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